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MarketingSherpa Webinar Archive

How to Use a Multichannel Campaign Strategy to Reach Key Decision-Makers

Daniel Burstein, MECLABS, and Bob Birge, Blue Pillar



In this MarketingSherpa webinar replay, learn how Bob Birge, Director of Marketing, Blue Pillar, increased his company's briefing call response rate 50% by using a mix of creative direct mail, emails and calls as strategic touch points.

This case study, which was presented at MarketingSherpa Email Summit 2014, walks through the challenges Birge and his team faced in attempting to access the elusive C-suite though cold calling and emailing. The team realized they needed a new plan of action after a failed business trip with zero booked meetings.

By learning from their mistakes and identifying key players, Birge and his team transformed their efforts into a multichannel approach, drawing in direct mail, email and phone conversations to reach their goals.

By sending a unique mail piece that included a mini Louisville Slugger baseball bat and establishing that initial connection, Birge and his team achieved 14 executive briefing calls, 21 calls with engineers and increased briefing calls 50%. The results of this effort also led to a win for Blue Pillar in MarketingSherpa Email Awards 2014, presented by ExactTarget.

Here is some feedback from the live webinar audience:
It was a case study showing both "strikeouts" and "homeruns." — Cynthia

Very good dialogue between speaker and facilitator. One of the most useful webinars I have listened to.
Thanks to speaker for being so candid about what worked and didn't work! — Vonnie

I liked hearing what didn't work and how they evolved the program. The results were
very compelling. — Dayna


Download the slides to this presentation

Related Resources

MarketingSherpa Email Awards 2014, presented by ExactTarget [Free PDF download]

Multichannel Marketing: Direct mail, phone and email combine to lift executive briefing calls 50%

Multichannel Marketing: 6 challenges for planning complex campaigns

B2B Marketing 2013 Wrap-up: Multichannel, direct mail, social media and more



Video Transcription

Daniel Burstein: Hello and welcome to another MarketingSherpa webinar. Weíve got a great B2B lead gen case study for you, and this is especially great for all these MarketingSherpa webinars we do. We have a lot of big companies on that have lots of resources and sometimes we hear back from you the viewer and you say, "Hey, thatís great. I'm a smaller company. I don't have as many resources." Well, for the SMB marketer, weíve got something great for you today, really a campaign you can replicate yourself, almost by yourself, really hands-on and really startup mentality. If youíre a big company, you can learn a lot, too, you'll probably have a lot more resources to throw out what is essentially just a really good idea, and that idea came from Bob Birge, the director for marketing for Blue Pillar. Thanks for joining us today, Bob.

Bob Birge: Thanks, Daniel, my pleasure, and thanks for all you guys do at MarketingSherpa.

Burstein: I appreciate it. Iím here in Jacksonville, Fla. We are actually live streaming from our studios today. We've got Bob up in Indianapolis joining us. You can, we're testing this out, if you want to try it out, for a more engaging interactive experience, go to MarketingSherpa.com/Webinar and you can see an actual video stream of our conversation with the slides mixed in, and also we try to make these webinars if you've attended before, itís not so much a presentation, itís an interview. A lot of those questions in that interview come from you. We want to be able to serve you, the live audience, as much as we possibly can so you can ask your questions through #SherpaWebinar on Twitter.

You can also share what B2B lead gen tactics and marketing tactics in general have worked for you and can use the Q-and-A function in GoToWebinar to ask your questions as well. I will also through Twitter through #SherpaWebinar be sharing a lot of additional resources that you can use to improve your own marketing. So really, remember, itís not a webinar, we're not specifically trying to present slides, the slides are just there to help us answer questions that you have. So please, ask your questions, we'll throw them to Bob and we'll see what we can all learn together. But letís start, Bob, by getting an understanding of Blue Pillar so we can understand your case study. What is Blue Pillar?

Birge: Blue Pillar, like you've mentioned, weíre headquartered in Indianapolis. We have customers that we serve from all around the country. We're a quick end power technology company and if power is important to you, thatís what we do. We are an enterprise software company that provides the backend support to be able to monitor and control all the complex systems that kind of make that up.

Burstein: So we can understand how you targeted your campaign, give me an idea of the type of industries you serve. What are your verticals?

Birge: We work across industries. We were founded at Duke University Medical Center and hospitals and health systems have been an important part of our makeup from the beginning, but any industry that is dependent on critical power is a client or a prospect for us, and that includes manufacturing. It includes data centers, thatís very important, universities, research facilities. We have military bases that are clients, and again, we have government clients. If power is important to you, if critical power is important, we want to be there.

Burstein: Let's start with the problem you face. This is problem that many companies and many marketers on the phone will face as well, and the reason I love this problem is what we have here is just a classic heroís journey. My background is as a writer, so of course I love storytelling, but weíre going to go through the classic heroes journey that you faced, Bob, and it started by why you had to leave and go off on that journey was you had a problem. What was your problem?

Birge: Yeah, I did. A lot is just reaching the right person and we know and weíre very confident that when we get in front of the right person, people that can understand what we do and the complexities of it, good things happen. A light goes off and we're off and running, but that first step needs to happen. Get in front of the right person and sometimes, thatís a lot more difficult than it sounds.


Burstein: Let's talk about how you took that approach. So, as you were saying, at many companies, it's hard when you have a complex sell to understand who that right person is, you just went straight to the top, huh?

Birge: Yeah, and itís people that can make the decisions. In todayís economy, budgets are getting tightened, thereís fewer people doing more things, and so itís a very busy world out there. So getting in front of that right person that understands what you do is a big part of the challenge, but also is somebody that can make decisions. If youíre in front of somebody that gets it, but they have no budget, they have no decision-making capability, then that becomes a big hurdle we have to go through, so itís that mix of the right decision makers with the right audience.

Burstein: Yes, that sounds like a marketer who is very passionate about his product. You get me in front of the right people, you get this message in front of the right people, theyíre going to be interested. So letís talk about some ways you try to do that. I think first, you tried to purchase an email list.

Birge: Yeah, we had purchased an email list and these were 507 C-suite executives with email addresses and information about them in the markets that we were looking to penetrate and it had things that we were looking for. It had the names and the titles and those types of things, and more importantly, the email addresses, which is often an elusive part. It had all that stuff and then we needed to think, what we were going to do next. We have this information; how do we best get a hold of them? And we did what a lot of people did, we tried to make cold calls and we sent out emails. These are people we did not have relationships with, they did not know who we were, and so it was kind of that first entrťe into bringing us to market.

Burstein: So, letís talk about the results of that effort.

Birge: Yeah, we had sent out some emails, and we did an email campaign and we targeted about 200 individuals and it was a very short email, CEO to CEO, asking for a briefing. We targeted an executive briefing on each topic to help them reduce operating expenses and it was very simple to the point, "I will have our executive assistant contact your executive assistant to get that meeting set up," and again, that was a common goal, we wanted to get our top people talking to their top people. So, in theory, I think it makes some sense. From that, there were follow-ups to try to get some traction with that, there was really only one executive briefing out of that initial batch of 200 that went out.

Burstein: And how did that executive briefing turn out?

Birge: I should also then, in all disclosure, well, we didn't have that follow-up briefing, it never happened. The person we scheduled with and confirmed did not make it to the meeting. So we thought we had one and we actually went from batting — Whatís the batting average of one out 200? It think itís batting 50, a 0-5-0 in baseball. So, in that case, much worse than that. We actually ended up with zero, and zero out of 200 is much easier to figure out.

Burstein: I can even calculate that one. Yeah, and first of all, I want to thank Bob for being so transparent. He's going to share some of his successes coming up, but also showing how he failed. A lot of marketers after they watch a MarketingSherpa webinar or a case study in general, they come away with some great advice, but then they always say to us, like, "Oh boy, I have so much to do. Iím doing so poorly." So itís always great from people like you, Bob, to share these stories and say, "Hey, even successful marketers, they have their struggles here and there." So, letís look at what you tried to do next when that email campaign didn't work.

Birge: Yeah, we had used a lead generation company that had done some good work for us, and the challenge was very similar, we wanted them to help us set up meetings with some of our target audiences, so we used them. They did all the research. The goal there was to have meetings. We want to come into your market, come into your facilities, we want to present. Again, going back on the premise, when we get in front of that right audience, we have an absolute killer of solution, so when weíre in front of that right crowd, we are very excited, we are very confident that good things happen, but again, as I mentioned earlier, thatís the challenge. So the next point, letís set up face-to-face meetings, letís go out there, letís get in front of folks and letís make some noise. And that was our intention going in. That was our goal and that didn't quite end up like we had hoped.

Burstein: Yeah, so from these meetings that were set up, you went to Indianapolis, you took the time, you went down to Texas and how did these meetings turn out, these three meetings you had?

Birge: Yeah, we did have three meetings scheduled, and again, three meetings is better than no meetings, so we were excited about that. Confirmations are done, people were scheduled to come in from different points into the meeting, into those series of meetings, and once we were on the ground, we learned that of those three, two had cancelled. So now weíre down to just one meeting and when that meeting happened, we quickly learned that we were in front of an assistant to an assistant and in the first five minutes it was thrown out to us that not only were there no decision-making capabilities, but there was also no budget and they didn't quite understand what we did, so that meeting was, I guess, somewhat frustrating if you can call it a meeting at that.

Burstein: Yeah, so weíre at strike two. So if we look at kind of that hero's journey, that Bob's on, weíre really at the end of "Empire Strikes Back" right here. It looks like things arenít too well in the universe, but as you know, Bobís on here today to share his success, he found a really interesting way to bounce back that weíre going to get to in just a moment that you can use as well. In the meantime, Bob, Iím going to give you one or two questions to chew on and think about and then Iím going to come back and get to those. Pat wanted to know what your email open rates are and Cameoís asking what were the open clickthrough rates on that first email campaign and Neil wanted to know three meetings out of how many. So I have one or two things to tell the audience about, but let's come back and get a little more data about how those campaigns are working out for you and then get into the campaign that was really successful.

One thing I wanted to let the audience know about is Web Optimization Summit. You can hear even more inspiring stories and learnings at Web Optimization Summit 2014 in New York City. Weíve just announced some new companies to our agenda. Weíve got case studies from American Express, Ancestry.com and even a great speaker from Harvard University, so you can visit MarketingSherpa.com/WebOpt for more information. And actually, weíve also just launched the call for speakers for our Lead Gen Summit in San Francisco, so if anyone is on the line and you have a case study that you'd like to share, you can fill out that call for speakers. We'll tweet that link through #SherpaWebinar. Bob, what's it like to be a speaker at a MarketingSherpa Summit, because you were a speaker at Email Summit?

Birge: I was, I was at Email Summit in February and for me, it was an absolutely an excellent experience. I got to work with people on your staff on the front end. You guys did a lot of the heavy lifting, which was very necessary for my schedule, came up with some wonderful graphics, and again, kudos to your staff, but just the whole time, I mean, I also got to attend other sessions and other events, the whole program is very well-organized. We go to conferences, we attend conferences and this is as good as any that I have seen, and also the atmosphere that went with it. It was a lot of people facing very similar problems. They're looking for very similar solutions, so there's a certain collegiality that went on at Email Summit and I was just very thrilled to be part of it.

Burstein: Well, thank you, Bob, and thanks for taking the time to be part of it and we hope you watching will share your stories as well. I also want to thank the Oracle Marketing Cloud for sponsoring this webinar and making us able to bring it available free to you today. You can learn how modern marketers use Oracle Marketing Cloud to create ideal customers and increase revenue by attending the Modern Marketing Tour. It's a free full-day event in a city near you. You can go to events.oracle.com/mmt; and they actually have events from all around the world. So if you youíre tuning in from outside of the United States, youíre welcome to join as well. Alright, Bob, weíre going to get into now some of the solutions for how you were actually able to improve your results after facing a few of those setbacks, but let's go back to some of those questions. Can you give us a little idea of how those emails performed? Obviously, we say your ultimate KPI of setting up those executives meetings didn't work out, but were people opening, were they clicking, were they responding?

Birge: Yeah, we had identified our key players. We knew our market, so that part went fine. It was really more on the execution or the lack of results that we got hurt, and then we needed to establish a connection. So those were two important steps; who are trying to reach and then what do you do to establish that connection? And that's kind of where we were stumbling. Clickthrough rates were relatively poor. And again, I'm always amazed to go on the email setup came up and when the people are talking about they're sending out mass email in the thousands and they get real excited if they get a 1.5% clickthrough and they increase that to 3%, they've got 100% improvement on their clickthrough, and I guess the way I look at that is, my God, I've got 97% of the people that aren't even opening my email.

So I look at it as kind of the other side of that equation. I would rather me reach a much more targeted audience and have as many people if not every one of them recognizing what I'm sending out. That's where we kind of concluded that we tried the email, we had the folks, but it wasn't great for introductions. We had a couple things I needed to add. First is that when we did that it was based on volume, so we, like I mentioned earlier, we had 200 that we sent out and again, we ended up with one and the one turned to zero. I think you've sometimes got to pull back because much of this is based on premise, on a study that came out in 2012 that the average business person gets in excess of 100 emails a day, and you might say well, I only get 50 or so, but there's someone that's getting 150 and whatever. That was for an average of two years ago.

Burstein: That poor guy who has to make up the average for you. If youíre only getting 50, youíre pretty lucky.

Birge: And I just came back from spring break, and when I got back I had been on a cruise and so I wasn't able, you know, the situation now with most people when you go on vacation, you keep up on your emails just so you donít have to come back to such huge numbers, and I wasn't able to do that. So when I came back I had more than 1000 emails that I had to sort through along with everything else. So, just keep that in mind, people are sorting through clutter. In fact, conversations that talk about email in the topic message, but man, I was on auto delete, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom as quickly as I could. I sure hope I didn't delete anything important, but we realized that email wasn't really a great way to introduce our company and I think our results showed that.

Burstein: Kevin, who's in marketing, wanted to know, what about adding phone calls with email and postal mail? I think that kind of gets into what you ended up deciding to do, right?

Birge: That is exactly right and I think, too, a similar thing, when you go back and look at your own practices, how many personal phone calls are you getting today? I know I don't get near as many. If I'm getting 100 emails a day, Iím not getting 100 hundred calls a day, I'll tell you that. That's an important part of this question that I'll touch on in a second, but the personal phone calls are a real important part.

Burstein: Yeah, and those whose joined late, to fill you in, we've got Bob Birge here, the director of marketing at Blue Pillar. He's got a great SMB B2B lead case study. One of the things he did was use a dimensional mailer and I want to get into the cost of that dimensional mailer, Bob. Tim, who's a CEO, wants your advice. What is the best cost for the mailing portion?

Birge: Well, on this particular campaign, we had initially, the very first one that I put together it was last year early part of the summer, I had budgeted as $1,000 and my unit cost per target was about $10. So I was going to be able to reach 100 individuals for that $1,000 budget, so again, going back to that earlier list 100 C-suite director-level type individuals we identify and then the overall budget of roughly $1,000. One of the things we did is we knew the organizations we were trying to reach, but you also increase your success rate when you have multiple people to identify at each organization, because if you do a one-on-one, if itís one person for one organization and you donít have any luck with that one person, then youíre kind of done. So if you identify three or four people, you've got a better chance of reaching the right person, helping them find the right person for you. That was another important part of this, using the C-suite to help us identify who is the person most responsible, and so thatís another thing to keep in mind. It's not 100 units, 100 organizations, it's more like 20 organizations, 25 organizations, four or five pieces at each organization if that makes sense.

Burstein: Yeah, and we've got a question here from Muhammad who says, "Hi, I'm from Egypt, I work as a marketer. My question is, why is my email campaign not effective?" Of course, there could be a wide range of reasons why email campaigns aren't effective, but one of the key elements as Bob was talking about earlier, is getting that email to the right people. You don't have this huge of a list to get to the right people. As we look at your campaign goals here, the lists and management part was really interesting to me because in the past you bought that list and you worked for an outside lead agency, but this list, you really built yourself and wanted to have a quality list, and then learn from how people engage with that list, how good of a list it was. So, can you tell us a little bit how you selected this list that was ultimately successful?

Birge: Yeah, we really did build it ourselves. We used some of the resource we had had before, but another lesson we learned from our email campaign before was we got a lot of just email returned and that's always very frustrating when your inbox is filling up with returned-cannot deliver email, and we did experience a lot of that as well. So we did things the old-fashioned way. We knew the organizations we were trying to reach. We went online. We did research. We used things like LinkedIn. We visited websites. So I tried to build the lists, including phone numbers, as best we could, including email, but again, the one thing thatís real easy to find is their mailing address.

Burstein: Yeah, that's a good point and Susan, on #SherpaWebinar, asked how did Bob Birge identify the 100 individuals to send his dimensional mailer for? I hope that answers your question. That was really key, going to the mailing address, not just trying to find the email address, which can be harder to find. Letís look at your campaign timeline and how that dimensional mailer tied in with email. We have a question here from Pat who asks, "$10 per touch or for multiple touches combined?" I think $10, that's for that first dimensional mailer touch, right? We're not talking about every phone call and email.

Birge: Yeah, thatís right. Thatís for the mailer on the left and the other thing is, so I timed this early last summer, this initial campaign, and we've done several since because of the results, but the initial campaign was early last summer. I know I had actually used a mini Louisville Slugger years ago and great success. I was in one of the offices where we used that with somebody that had received it, and it's still sitting in their office. Baseball season was my sudden ticket, and so I put together a package that you see in the tube there. That was kind of the heavy duty tube. I think that cost us about $0.50, and then a couple of pieces of collateral on Blue Pillar, here's a little bit of an explanation of who we are, what we do and then the personal letter, and again, when I mentioned about p mail, thatís what we call it, it's personalizing that letter so it speaks to not only them, but it makes a reference to where they're located, how many facilities they have.

There's two or three spots within the letter that they know I'm speaking directly to them, and that's the intention. It's to say this is especially for you, and that was part of the thing. So that goes out, that gets mailed. We have a production day here, those would get dropped in the mail and then we would wait about two weeks. You want to make sure that the mail catches up and gets to them, so you probably want to wait about ten days to two weeks, but I'd gear towards two weeks, and then the follow-up phone calls. Again, that's when you're calling and we're calling it the C-suite director level, a lot of times, almost always you're going to get an executive assistant.

The other thing I have found is they can be very helpful, so itís real important to develop a relationship with them, and what we were finding out was, "Hey, about two weeks ago I sent a package. It would have included a black mini Louisville Slugger baseball bat," and a light went on. All of a sudden I became their best friend, "Oh yeah, we got that," because itís not like, "Hey, two weeks ago I sent you an email. I know you've gotten over 1,000 since then. Do you remember my email?" because I knew that between the last two weeks, they probably didn't get any other mini Louisville Slugger baseball bats. So now we've connected. I've heard all kinds of stories that somebody else wanted it, we had to fight over it, and all that, so we looked at your materials and maybe we forwarded it to somebody that would be appropriate, theyíd give me that personís name, contact information, and thatís just what we needed. We needed to be in front of that right person, and so they helped us. They worked with us in identifying who that individual is and then that would lead to a follow-up call and now weíre scheduling our executive briefing the way we originally wanted to, but this time itís with the right person, again, thanks due to the interdiction of others.

Then what happens, a lot of times you're leaving voicemail, but executive assistants are really good about getting back and so a lot of times thatís who youíre dealing with and when you follow up you follow their lead. They'll give you new names and numbers to follow up with and you contact them and you're contacting them at the pleasure of your previous introduction. I usually go about another two weeks and if I have not gotten return calls and all I've left is voicemail, then I follow-up with email. Again, I could call back six months later and they would still remember that baseball bat.

Burstein: Now let's take a little bit of a closer look at that mailing. We have a question here from Steve. Was the mailing all in one package or mailed out one time? It looks like you put together that brochure, and the bat and that personal themed letter all in one package, right?

Birge: Yeah, all in one package and itís kind of a one-time deal. You'll see I've got some filler in there so it doesn't appear to be a bomb or anything. Itís the first thing somebodyís going to open. When you walk into your office and get this youíre going to say, "Uh-oh, whatís this?" and youíre going to open it up, and thatís just not the case with email I guess. Daniel, I donít want to put you in the spot, but thereís the other part of this, personal mail has really dropped incredibly in the last decade. Part of that study was the 100 emails a day and the other part of that study is you get a personal letter once every seven weeks. So think of that, once every seven weeks. Thereís somebody I'm trying to reach, do I have a better chance of being one out of 100 emails a day or sending them something like this, and I know theyíre not going to get a personal letter for another seven weeks, what do I have better chances? So I guess Iím going to put you on the spot by asking you, whenís the last time you got a person letter at work?

Burstein: Yeah, that's a great point and I can't even remember. I think we'd talked about this a little earlier. If I really think back, maybe like three, six months ago from like a job interviewee I had thanking me for the job interview I did with them. I think part of the brilliance of what you did here, Bob, is a lot of times as marketers, we follow the trend, whatís the word in the cloud, what's everyone doing mobile, social and everything, and we just get kind of mixed in with the noise of that, and you really looked to zig where others zagged. And as you said, really have that personal letter and that personal greeting with people. Another thing you did is that personal phone call follow-up to that personal letter and we have a question here from Cameo, did you outsource your phone calls or did internals make those for you? How did you do the phone calling?

Birge: Candidly, we kept all that internally. We wanted to keep it personal. I will tell you, I probably made over half the calls myself and then we had some other people on staff make others, and again, we kept it in our database and our CRM. We make notes of the successes, but again, the thought was to use that campaign to get introduced to the right person and set up meetings. So yeah, in most cases, we kept it very personal and it was always the people here.

Burstein: That's where this campaign is great for a marketer or hey, if you're a bigger company and got more resources, use inside sources or outsource if you have to. It was that phone call, it was that email, the setting those appointments. Here are those results, very impressive. Let's get into a little bit more about what about launch is we said in that letter. We have a few questions about that. Dan wants to know, how did you tie in the baseball bat to the marketing message? What information talking points did you put in that personal letter? I'm guessing that personal letter, as you asked me, how often do I get a personal letter, really writing that personal letter right was key. So what did you put in that letter?

Birge: Yeah, that's a good question. Just sending a baseball bat out of the blue with a letter could be confusing, so we did have a little bit of a baseball theme. It was strike one, strike two, strike three, with problems. So at the beginning we connected with, we started with the problem. A lot of marketers like to do that. I think that's a good tactic and we used the one, two, three, strikes. In the last one itís a high fastball in the outside corner, you're caught looking, strike three, and there's bullet points in there that theyíre going to understand. Then a little bit later in the letter we had a single, double, triple, homerun, and those were parts of our solution that were all positive pieces. So we did tie it in with the baseball theme. Then this fall when we ran a football campaign, we did a mini leather football and we tied in teamwork, the importance of teamwork and football being the ultimate team sport, so thereís a little bit of an analogy and connection with whatever we send.

Burstein: So that's the letter. We looked, there's a very pleasant meeting success rate, so a little further in the funnel, meeting success rate, Susan, on #SherpaWebinar, asks what was the key script or offer made during the phone call? So what did you do then when you actually got on the phone?

Birge: Well, we confirmed they got it. We confirmed they got the piece and, again, everyone did, literally to the person, everyone recalled getting it. It was the executive assistant often speaking on behalf of somebody else, and then again, we used that opportunity, that conversation, to identify the right person for us to be speaking with. In our case, it wasn't going to be CEO that we sent the stuff to, but we were going to use the CEO's office to help us, to work with us to identify who is the right person because they have now seen what we do and they've got a better understanding and can say, "No, this needs to be so-and-so. Follow up with that person at our request," and then thatís when good things happen. So that's kind of how that conversation. Now, weíre calling the second person that we've been introduced to, and sure, theyíre going to set a meeting with us now because they've been asked to do so, and good things happen from there.

Burstein: Awesome, so to tie it all up, Janine, a marketing assistant, wants to know, how can I apply this to a fine arts photographer's business? So what are the top takeaways you had, Bob, that marketers of all stripes can use in their own campaigns?

Birge: I think here, connect while there's an address, I think that makes perfect sense. I think using something thatís different. Again, personal mail, one personal letter once every seven weeks, establish an offline connection, get to know those persons, gee the phone a little bit, and emailís very, very important. I didn't want to criticize email here because email is then when you follow up, you follow up, you may follow up with your audience that you're going to do a WebEx with or setting up a live meeting, email then becomes a very, very important tool. It goes back to the basics, learn your product, learn your audience and then finding a way to reach them. And that again, it may not work for everybody, but it certainly has worked for us and we continue to do a lot of those practices today.


Burstein: And be original. It's certainly an original campaign, Bob. Thanks for joining us today. If youíre watching, help us, we tried to be original this time with MarketingSherpa webinar and have that live stream. If you scroll down on that live stream page, you can take the survey. Let us know what was helpful, what you would like to see us do on these MarketingSherpa webinars to help you improve your own marketing campaigns, and just when you close that up, the GoToWebinar, you can take that survey as well. So, thank you for watching and, Bob, thank you so much for calling in today and sharing what you've learned from your campaigns.

Birge: Sure, Daniel, my pleasure, and again, thanks to you guys and the fine staff at MarketingSherpa.

Burstein: Our pleasure, thanks for attending the webinar.


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